A quick visit from Sergej

Sergej just called to bring back English 901 Book 1 that he had borrowed from me. He kept the cassettes and had planned to copy the books, though I forgot to ask him if he'd managed to do that. His car was double-parked with lights blinking in front of the house and we only spoke for a couple of minutes.

"Lots of stress" was his answer to my question: "How are you?". One of the project team ( a 'foreigner' I've just realised he said) has gone sick and the work has to be divided between Sergej and one other person.

I've thought back to our one and only lesson - amazing how much discussion there was about what turned out to be only one lesson - and wonder if I didn't spend far more time wondering about what I was going to do instead of pondering how I could best find out what he wanted. But I don't want to be too politically correct on this one and I think the answer is:"No. It was appropriate to think hard about what I was going to do." Remember this is 1to1 teaching and he has no English at all. He has said that he is not interested in examinations,only in being able to understand the discussions that go on in his Department quite requently in English. I'm too sure that my general approach, if I get the chance to use it, is appropriate - English only (as soon as possible), translation very sparingly and only when there is an important breakdown in communication, and talked based on his needs - from introducing himself and asking where his interlocutor comes from onwards and upwards.

If he does return I may well have to convince him that a method other than the one he is used to will bring better results.

English from Zero

Reality kicks in

I'd noticed that S. likes to plan things carefully. He timed his sessions with me to fit in between preparation for an examination and doing a laboratory-based team project in the summer break.

A new professor has arrived, though, and decreed that the project must be done now, beginning this week. This involves working with other students and together writing a report.

So....

Our next meeting is scheduled for two months from now.

I confess I'm somewhat disappointed.

Nevertheless: Watch this space...........

Dennis

Dennis

Message: 8502 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 9:27 Subject: Re: Scott''s alter ego and the ''lexically challenged''

Rob - I'm not sure I'm talking to Scott after his insinuations about alternative forms of marriage :-)) (1) This talk of 'words' , I got posh and started calling them lexical items. I think, personally, (can one think impersonally?) that it helps a lot to know which are the most frequently used lexical items, and that graded readers, based on word frequency counts, can also be put to great use. One key point, though, is what it means to 'know' a lexical item - and I think the list is long. (I believe there is one in Nation's book, Learning Vocabulary in Another Language, Cambridge, 2001), If 'knowing' is expanded into meaning things like - can understand key meanings of when spoken, can recognize key meanings when reading, can use appropriately in spoken or written communication - then to say a person 'knows' 3,000 words would be equivalent to saying something like they have a very sound command of basic English. (2) Very many learners of English use "grammar" to mean something like "whatever it is that is not so good in my English." They aren't trained linguists. My German university students always used to say in the first couple of weeks: "I need more grammar". After a few sessions they began to differentiate, and, surprise, surprise, hardly any of them wanted grammar at all. "We had enough of that at school!" Dennis

Rob

Message: 8500 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 6:39 Subject: Scott''s alter ego and the ''lexically challenged''

In the file Scott recently uploaded, I read: "But there are problems. Does 3000 words mean 3000 words, or 3000 word families? (A word family is a base word and its derivatives. So, the word family for frequency, for example, would include frequent, infrequent and frequently). And does 3000 words mean 3000 meanings? Clearly not, since many words in English have more than one meaning. Think of mean, for a start: don't be mean; the mean temperature; did you mean to? he plays a mean game of dominoes..etc" Eureka! That's the passage I thought I'd read in Teaching Vocabulary, and it makes a very good point about words vs. word families. I think it was in the Grammar and Lexis module I finished reading a while back. Scott then goes on to say "Nevertheless..." and explains why learning from lists might not be a bad idea. The last line of Scott's article reads: "Language learning, in other words, is essentially lexical." Reminds me of yesterday's class: students submitted letters to me for the teacher who's filling in next week. Nearly every student requested grammar in reply to my query about what they would like to learn with the sub. When I asked what they mean by 'grammar': Rules about writing. Rules about how to combine words. Rules about how to write words correctly. Spelling. After a brief discussion, it was agreed that spelling was not directly related to grammar (not sure that's entirely true though) and that grammar has a lot to do with words, that is the wrong word, a missing word, word order, a word's form... So it came about that I was able to underline 'word' in every sentence on the board and make the relationship between grammar and vocabulary more apparent. Fortunately, the students then gathered into groups to look over the grammar of some writing they'd done. Each small group received one paper at a time, deciding if the bits that didn't make sense to them were missing a word, had the wrong word, etc. from the list on the board. Rob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott

Message: 8501 From: Scott Thornbury Received: Fr Apr 29, 2005 8:22 Subject: Re: Scott''s alter ego and the ''lexically challenged''

In support of Rob's contention that "grammar has a lot to do with words", how about this: "In Chomsky's most recent work on Universal Grammar, called the Minimalist Program, he suggests that the [innate] language faculty consists of a computational procedure, which is virtually invariant across languages, and a lexicon. ... In this view, languages are different from one another only because their lexicons are different, and all that language acquisition involves is the learning of the lexicon" (Mitchell and Myles, Second Language Learning Theories, 2nd edition, 1998, 2004, p. 66. Of course, learning the lexicon means learning function words and their associated phraseology, which (insofar as I understand this) contain all the parameter settings necessary to trigger what we call grammar. "The task facing children (or second language learners) is therefore to learn the lexicon of the language around them, as well as the settings of the parameters applying to that language. The idea is known as the 'lexical paramaterization hypothesis', and it suggests that the parameters are contained primarily in the functional categories [i.e.function words are their associated phraseology]" (ibid). Learn the words, and you get the grammar for free. S.

Dennis

Message: 8499 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 10:23 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

I remember WAY back in the 60s, when I first heard of frequency lists, reading that, for some odd reason that no-one could explain, one day of the week - Thursday, I think - didn't appear in frequency lists. So apart from mere frequency words were included according to 'coverage' . Since there was nothing else to cover the intuitively useful concept THURSDAY the word Thursday was included, even without a numerical frequency rating. I thought, too, Julian, that there was a difference between the special defining vocabularly lists for entries that one or two dictionaries have and a pucker frequency of occurrence (across the whole language) list. I can't help noting at this point that one is on much surer ground when one is talking about a specific language and its makeup than when one is in deciding how to get said language into someone else's head and behaviour. Dennis - who happens to be going to his first same-sex marriage ceremony in two weeks' time

Scott

Message: 8497 From: Scott Thornbury Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 9:44 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

> BTW, Scott, the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English has had the > 2000-word defining vocabulary in the back for years. But maybe you > wanted 3000. Yes, Julian, I'm aware of that (and so do other dictionairies have such lists) and, in the absence of a learner-oriented list, I've recommended using the defining vocabulary. But there are problems with it that derive from its special purpose. Whereas the Oxford 3000 has been chosen (I am told) on the basis of both frequency and usefulness - not frequency alone since (as one of the lexicographers who was involved in the project explained to me) frequency is always measured at the level of the individual word, not of sets of words. So, while "uncle" is in the top 3000 most frequent words in English, "aunt" isn't. Yet it would be slightly perverse to include uncle in a list of useful words without his accompanying partner (even in this age of same sex marriages!) I'll try and dig out the article I wrote and post it in the files. S.

Dennis

Message: 8496 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 9:20 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

Julian, You wrote: "Last night I was remembering your account of Lesson 1 and thinking your drilling of the hours and the time sounded a bit dry (unless it's made into a game), but for Sergei, it might have been the high point--the least 'different'--so far." This will sound like a defence - which it is :-) . I reasoned that since S knew no English at all, and since this was our very first meeting numbers, time, days, months (up to April!) were easily understandable (and communiciatively useful) and would allow us to confirm the next meeting in English. It also threw up our first pronunciation points in need of attention. You also wrote: "Maybe you can teach Sergei in the conventional way with a textbook, Dennis. And balance that with some time actually using what you learn--which is another way of saying recycling it--to give him the best chance of learning it." I've been thinking as hard as I can about this one. In the end, of course, Sergei has to decide. He who pays the piper...... I need to be more informed about what he wants his English for, but I know it is not for examination purposes - he wants to be able to understand and take part in discussions about his subject that take place, apparently, quite frequently in English. He himself has said the technical vocabulary "is not the point. I can learn that later. It's the rest I need to understand." I'd be sad on his behalf if we went for a method, textbook- based, that, I believe, would be almost certain, by definition, to leave him with less real skill in English than one based on his specific needs, with the emphasis on oral and aural skills. // This discussion, of which the current exchange between Julian and myself is just a hiccough, is a moument to my loquaciousness. I've taught ONE lesson and engaged in a few thousand words discussing it, mostly before it was taught! //

Dennis

Message: 8495 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 9:20 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

I didn't jump, of course. In any case the only leap I was really interested in was a leap in understanding. As Rob pointed out, one shouldn't overlook what kind of learner S is. He did three hours' self-motivated work at home after the lesson. Dennis.

Julian

Message: 8494 From: Julian Bamford Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 3:52 Subject: EfromZ: 2000 words

Well, Dennis, I guess he wants to study English, not be apprenticed into it. Last night I was remembering your account of Lesson 1 and thinking your drilling of the hours and the time sounded a bit dry (unless it's made into a game), but for Sergei, it might have been the high point--the least 'different'--so far. Scott's not entirely tongue in cheek also chimed in with my thoughts. On the way to school today, I'd been pondering--what our students need is not more English study; they need to use the English they already know. For Japan is a lab where memorizing definitions is a high art (as a preparation for high stakes examinations, and to learn how to read English via translation into the native language). And almost all students who've gone through that have no experience or idea about actually using English as a language. Students come to my office saying they need or want to "speak English" and think this means they need to study more English. I've sort of bought into that, but the first step for most of them ought to be flexing their English muscles--because they do know a lot, and practice seems to unlock the door for most of them (metaphors, metaphors). After some of that, some study maybe. I'm going to do more to make my campus into a rip-roaring environment that encourages people to use and enjoy English. Maybe you can teach Sergei in the conventional way with a textbook, Dennis. And balance that with some time actually using what you learn--which is another way of saying recycling it--to give him the best chance of learning it. Julian BTW, Scott, the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English has had the 2000-word defining vocabulary in the back for years. But maybe you wanted 3000.

Scott

Message: 8490 From: Scott Thornbury Received: Do Apr 28, 2005 8:00 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

I've often be known to say - with the tongue not entirely in the cheek - that the most useful thing a language learner could do first is learn the top 3000 most useful words in English. At 10 words a day, with Sundays off and a break at Xmas, this would take about a year. Having learned them, they would then come back (to class) and start using them. It was a source of annoyance to me, however, that these top words were nowhere to be found, unless you combed through a dictionary taking out all the words marked in red (or whatever coding system the dictionary uses for frequency). Now, however, the latest edition (2005) of the Oxford (OALD) has what they call the Oxford 3000 (c) in the back. (I like to think this was partly my doing). If anyone wants to read my articles on the subject, I'll happily place them in the files. S.

Rob

Message: 8487 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Mi Apr 27, 2005 6:43 Subject: Don''t jump... to conclusions.

Dennis, The fall won't hurt you. It's that sudden stop at the end that I'm worried about. :-) Sergei is very motivated --- that's 99% of the learning (according to Chomsky). You've got so much to discuss in lesson 2! Rob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dr. Evil

Message: 8486 From: Adrian Tennant Received: Mi Apr 27, 2005 6:16 Subject: Re: EfromZ: 2000 words

Dennis wrote: > He 'phoned a friend who is also having private tuition in English and the friend told him: ' It's very simple. There is this list of the 2000 most used words in English. All you have to do is learn and remember the meanings of these words. It's easy, man." > I'm just driving to the local post office tower, the tallest building around here, to jump off. I leave all my TEFL books to dogme list members. It reminds me of a story I was once told by someone (was it you Dennis?) of a West African country where the President passed a decree regarding the teaching of English in schools. The decree stated that on Monday Nouns were to be taught, Tuesday was for Verbs, Wednesday for Adjectives etc and Saturday for Prepositions. I guess this could have been called the 'Sentence a week' method. But then by week 2 it would be 'Beyond the sentence' wouldn't is Scott? Dr E -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis

Message: 8485 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Mi Apr 27, 2005 5:32 Subject: EfromZ: 2000 words

Had a short talk in German with S. when he called round to explain that there have been some changes to his timetable at the Technical University which could affect us. I asked him what exactly he meant when he said several times that what we had done yesterday was ' very different' . He said when he had had French at the grammar school (so it's not true he's never learned a language at school) they learned vocabulary, and did grammar and the teacher gave them exercises to do at home. It was quite new to him to speak English for the whole lesson.He'd spent three hours last night writing down the words we'd done together (one, two, three etc.) and looking them up in the dictionary...... And then he'd worked with the English 900 tape. "It was pretty chaotic at first, but then I got my younger brother to help me and he pointed out where I was pronouncing it wrong." He said that he'd worked for three hours, actually, which was too long. He 'phoned a friend who is also having private tuition in English and the friend told him: ' It's very simple. There is this list of the 2000 most used words in English. All you have to do is learn and remember the meanings of these words. It's easy, man." I'm just driving to the local post office tower, the tallest building around here, to jump off. I leave all my TEFL books to dogme list members. :-)ennis

Julian

Message: 8484 From: Julian Bamford Received: Mi Apr 27, 2005 11:10 Subject: 1-2-1 with Sergei

Hi Dennis, Thank you for your report on your first meeting with Sergei. It was good to read it, and the responses to it. Recycle, recycle seems the way to go. And using Scott's Crusoe scenario, "There's that damned parrot again" and "Shall we cut across the beach or go round the lagoon?" can be recycled as is, and can be expanded and reduced to such things as, "There's that damned bee again." "Shall we (do it) again." and so on and on. You wrote: > What's a bit eerie about teaching one-to-one with a total beginner is > that there is (in S's > case, at least) no other source for the language than me. Do you mean you are the only source of the (English) lesson content? My experience in a similar 1-2-1 situation is that the situation we are in supplies the content and I put the English to it (like you did when climbing the stairs, and with the bee). Or the student provides the content (probably in response to a question from me such as about hobbies, or heavy engineering, or what he did yesterday evening. . .) With a beginner, I probably have to ask the question in both native language and English, and the student probably responds in his native language. I translate (which I know you don't fancy!) all or some of his response into English if I think it is useful, or if it recycles something we did before. Because basic English items are by definition high-frequency, items like "again" and "Shall we" and things in the immediate environment (parrots, beaches and lagoons for Crusoe and Friday; bees, stairs, cups of coffee and homework tapes for you guys) appear and get recycled over and over. I'm very careful, especially at the beginning, to limit the English input to what he can understand and handle, but after a few hours when the recycling starts seriously kicking in, there begins to be exponential growth in the English he can understand and use. All the best for "lesson 2!" Julian

Rob

Message: 8483 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 10:27 Subject: 1-2-1 with Sergei

Dennis wrote: What's a bit eerie about teaching one-to-one with a total beginner is that there is (in S's case, at least) no other source for the language than me. He can't learn from his classmates, because there aren't any. He can't, at least yet, learn from radio, TV, songs, because he can only tell the time, tell you the day of the week and say. 'bee'. *Yes, and it's important for me to remember that you are working in an EFL context, not one where Sergei is exposed to the target language as soon as he steps outside the classroom. So he grew up in Russia(n), moved to German(y) and now wants to learn English in Germany? But there are plenty of English-language newspapers, TV programs, films, radio stations featuring at least some of their content in English there, right? But, again, he doesn't seem to be ready to learn much from these sources of language, so you feel you are his Source of Sources, is that right? What about a good beginner's (picture?) dictionary? S. could use that at home or wherever. Which brings me to the writing: Dennis: You made a comment in your previous message I think it was about writing. I'll admit something. Writing individual words down is one thing, but any kind of writing exercise I don't fancy any more than I fancy translation. The trouble with writing, of course, is that it slows things down, and I think S and I need to keep up the pace, at least for the first few meetings. *Sergei can always write outside of class, can't he? That way, he writes at his own pace, checking his dictionary perhaps, and class can be spent interacting with you and the immediate surroundings. In class, it might help to use a board, if you have one, to provide visual as well as aural impressions of the language that seems useful, i.e. Sergei hears it, he sees it, and maybe later he writes it down. Cognitive depth for better acquisition, no? Hope you're not feeling overwhelmed, Dennis. I've not been able to teach 1-2-1 for so long... this is exciting for me, too! Rob [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dennis

Message: 8482 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 9:52 Subject: Re: Sergei --- ticking off vs. ticking over

Again, Rob, thanks for the comments. They help. As my answer to Scott revealed, the remark about ticking off was a bit of a red herring, but it's no bad thing to be reminded by both of you to recycle, recycle, recycle - albeit with other stuff in between. What's a bit eerie about teaching one-to-one with a total beginner is that there is (in S's case, at least) no other source for the language than me. He can't learn from his classmates, because there aren't any. He can't, at least yet, learn from radio, TV, songs, because he can only tell the time, tell you the day of the week and say. 'bee'. You made a comment in your previous message I think it was about writing. I'll admit something. Writing individual words down is one thing, but any kind of writing exercise I don't fancy any more than I fancy translation. The trouble with writing, of course, is that it slows things down, and I think S and I need to keep up the pace, at least for the first few meetings. Dennis

Dennis

Message: 8481 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 9:06 Subject: Re: EfromZ: FIRST MEETING

Thanks a lot for you comments, Scott. Much appreciated. Actually the 'ticking off' of items 'done' was meant ironically. I was preoccupied with how what we did and are about to do might seem to S and wanted him to have something he'd recognise. Clearly what I hope he'll realise is that he is learning English without the need for ticks. I hope that by meeting/lesson 3/4 we will have got into our stride and S will have picked up how we are going to work together. Dennis

Rob

Message: 8479 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 7:42 Subject: Sergei --- ticking off vs. ticking over

Dennis, when you wrote about your desire for the words on a list to end up in Sergei's head and not simply as ticked off items, I inferred that you meant they'd need to be recycled. Scott is right, of course, about the importance of multiple exposures, which reminds me of trying to capture an image on film: if you want to truly explore a subject (lexical bit), you'll need to expose it (memory) from different angles (recycling). Where textbooks tend to give a single snapshot, *you* and Sergei can actually create a motion picture. Example: Before you come up the stairs next time, what if you ask Sergei to brief you on what it's like making your way into the room? I remember 'narrow', 'on/to the left' and 'door'. Does he remember anything? Could you scaffold as he describes the way up to the room? It doesn't have to be a test, you can just ask what he remembers. Eventually, Sergei might be explaining how to reach the classroom to a friend, family member, etc. *And* some of those words on the list of 1000 are bound to be used in his description, in context, are they not? Hope that helps. Rob

Scott

Message: 8478 From: Scott Thornbury Received: Mi Apr 27, 2005 7:00 Subject: Re: EfromZ: FIRST MEETING

5. I'm thinking I must provide him with a list of words - the 1000 most commonly used > words in English? - so that he can tick them off when he's 'done' them. | > He can also tick off English 900's 800 base sentences- and I'm beginning to think I will (we > will) produce dialogues that try capture what he needs and wants to say. ||||| Dennis, my feeling might be to focus less on "ticking off" and more on "ticking over" (hmm, I just thought of that). What i mean is that learning is all about repeated encounters, and "ticking off" gives the idea that "well, we've done that one, let's move on" when all the evidence suggests that at least six or seven (spaced) encoutners with a word are necessary if it has any chance of becoming "intake" (rather than just noise). So, that's what I mean about keeping the vocab "ticking over". Keep finding excuses to recycle it, which means always re-capping, both within the lesson and from one lesson to the next. To pursue my Robinson Crusoe Method analogy, I imagine that as they wandered around the (pretty small) island Robinson and Friday kept having more or less the same conversations, of the type "There's that damned parrot again" and "Shall we cut across the beach or go round the lagoon?". This kind of repeated (meaningful) use of language can only be a Good Thing, creating an optimal linguistic environment for intake (what van Lier has called affordances). So I wouldn't worry to much about the need to jump from topic to topic (in the fashion of coursebooks) but just spend a lot of time talking about the things you talked about last time, including those things that are in the immediate environment -like the bee!

Dennis

Message: 8477 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 7:01 Subject: Re: first meeting

Thanks very much for all the comments, Rob - all of them helpful Figuratively speaking I'm just dying to get to know more about S, but I need time. I'd say at the moment that he's rather mature and bright. Dennis

Rob

Message: 8476 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 6:14 Subject: first meeting

Dear Dennis, I love the bit about the spirit bee buzzing around inspirationally. And I'm really glad you led us to the classroom along with the two of you. with an eye and a nose for detail, a teacher can make mountains out of molehills in the most positive sense. I told you you'd be speaking some German in the beginning. :-) But, as you've made clear, not in the *explicit* teaching. Your comments: 1. It was most enjoyable and we achieved something. Could we perhaps have done more?| *Sure, but what's wrong with what you did? One thing I might have asked for was whatever words, phrases, etc. Sergei could write (Can he write German?) on a slip of paper for me to copy, which might serve as a written record of our first meeting. I tend to encourage journals, even with beginning learners. Pictures, poetry, words and whatever else they want to include. 2. Did I put on too much of an act? | *I doubt it, but did you? 3 I definitely spoke too much copulating German, though not for the teaching. I can see, however, a first session is not typical and there are lots of arrangements to make. | *Kein Kommentar. :-) 4.. He has said several times: 'This is very different.' Does that mean where is the textbook? *You should ask him that. He asked if he should have a vocabulary book. I said, if it helps, but only if the words end up in his head as well as in the book. | *Have you thought about introducing Sergei to the Keyword Approach if he doesn't already know it? 5. I'm thinking I must provide him with a list of words - the 1000 most commonly used words in English? - so that he can tick them off when he's 'done' them. | *Which list, and with so many of them being function words, won't it be better to put them in context in order to help S. notice patterns and functions, e.g. 'for+VERB-ing' to talk about purpose. He can also tick off English 900's 800 base sentences- and I'm beginning to think I will (we will) produce dialogues that try capture what he needs and wants to say. ||||| *Good! 6. My worry is that *I* could end up having a great, humanistic, dogme time and S could feel he isn't getting much. As I write this point I'm having an awful bout of: "It's all very well for us, but what do the Ss of this world want? ........ Do you think I qualify for a free copy of "Throwaway", just in case ? I'll pretend I didn't read the part about the textbook :-) You concern is legitimate except that a great, humanistic, dogme time would mean that you both had a positive learning experience, or at least S. did. Did you connect with Sergei? You've said very little about what kind of person he seems to be, which might be your way of respecting the man's privacy. However, I'd like to know if you can share any knowledge of his previous learning experiences, his passion for cars, the outdoors, schematic drawings or whatever? What makes Heavy Engineering different from other forms of Engineering? You see, Dennis, it's all about *me*, not you! :-) My point should be that it's only the first lesson, and, as you've said, there are arrangements to be made. I think the fact that you went a half-hour over your allotted time indicates a good time was had by all. In anticipation of the next meeting with Sergei, Rob

Hilary

Message: 8475 From: hilary Received: Di Apr 26, 2005 2:04 Subject: Re: EfromZ: FIRST MEETING

Really enjoyed your account of first lesson with no books, no writing - only a bee. Reminds me of a friend in Italy who did years of freelance work teaching this way - dogme? - no materials, just talk - don't know about the bee bit. He travelled round the region he lived in teaching mostly in-company and at the students' homes and became so successful (I define success here as: students liked this way of learning; they felt they learnt a lot and that their progress was smooth and almost effortless) that people were leaving private language schools in (small) droves to learn with him! When asked what the secret of his success was, he said 'I don't teach them anything!' - self-effacing, but maybe a lot of dogme truth there. Hilary

EfromZ: 2000 words

Had a short talk in German with S. when he called round to explain that there have been some changes to his timetable at the Technical University which could affect us. I asked him what exactly he meant when he said several times that what we had done yesterday was ' very different' . He said when he had had French at the grammar school (so it's not true he's never learned a language at school) they learned vocabulary, and did grammar and the teacher gave them exercises to do at home. It was quite new to him to speak English for the whole lesson.He'd spent three hours last night writing down the words we'd done together (one, two, three etc.) and looking them up in the dictionary...... And then he'd worked with the English 900 tape. "It was pretty chaotic at first, but then I got my younger brother to help me and he pointed out where I was pronouncing it wrong." He said that he'd worked for three hours, actually, which was too long. He 'phoned a friend who is also having private tuition in English and the friend told him: ' It's very simple. There is this list of the 2000 most used words in English. All you have to do is learn and remember the meanings of these words. It's easy, man."

I'm just driving to the local post office tower, the tallest building around here, to jump off. I leave all my TEFL books to dogme list members.

:-)ennis

EfromZ: FIRST MEETING

It was easy at first to talk English with context making the meaning pretty clear -

'Let's go upstairs. Here - left. Be careful, it's a bit narrow here. Would you like to take a seat here? No, here.' |

| Some general business in German followed, including the statement that I was going to speak as much English as possible, but that he should feel quite free to speak German if he wanted to or needed to. (Various friends and colleagues had made me feel a bit of a beast for not planning to build in a fair amount of translation). |

We were able to make spontaneous use of a bee (sent by the Spirit of Dogme?) that buzzed and flew from one window to another generating for us: bee, honey, inside, outside and ' I like bees if they don't sting me. They make honey."

| S had told me he'd picked up a few English words from films and video and music channels.He added yesterday that one doesn't necessarily know what they mean, one cannot necessarily translate them properly, but one has heard them. I asked him for 10. He came up with, in the order I give them: LOVE, POLICE, ( a police siren could be heard outside) MAN. There may have been two more, but that was it. He immediately apologised: "I should have prepared more carefully." I tried to convince him he couldn't have and I was only asking out of interest.|

Thinking that we'd need to be able to talk about when we were going to meet, I arranged for us to do the following:|

the numbers from 1-12 (for the time), the hours (6 o'clock etc), half past, quarter past, quarter to. (This was all oral. The only thing I wrote down in 90 minutes was: ' o'clock' and all S wrote down was his email address for me). |

I said the word(s), S repeated a few times and then - with the numbers - he said them forwards and backwards and according to what I was indicating with my fingers. For the time I provided a clock, he moved the hands to the appropriate time and I asked: "What's the time now?" |

| Towards the end I asked: '"When are we going to have our second meeting?" He said to himself, in German: "I understand that question and I know the answer, um..." And he volunteered: 'Wednesday', which was correct. |

| Finally, I spent some time explaining (German) and demonstrating (English) how to use the tapes to English 900. He was quite interested in the chance to be able to work outside the meetings and saw at once that he could listen to the tapes, for example, while driving his car.

| We'd gone on 30 minutes longer than expected, and he absolutely insisted on paying me for an extra half an hour. He also asked if "hour" for the meetings/lessons meant 60 or 55 minutes.

As he left S said: "Goodbye, Dennis." He'd picked up 'Goodbye' doing one of the English 900 drills.

||||| My comments.

1. It was most enjoyable and we achievedsomething. Could we perhaps have done more?| 2. Did I put on too much of an act? | 3 I definitely spoke too much copulating German, though not for the teaching. I can see, however, a first session is not typical and there are lots of arrangements to make. | 4.. He has said several times: 'This is very different.' Does that mean where is the textbook? He asked if he should have a vocabulary book. I said, if it helps, but only if the words end up in his head as well as in the book. | 5. I'm thinking I must provide him with a list of words - the 1000 most commonly used words in English? - so that he can tick them off when he's 'done' them. | He can also tick off English 900's 800 base sentences- and I'm beginning to think I will (we will) produce dialogues that try capture what he needs and wants to say. ||||| At a conference: May I introdude myself? S from the Department of Heavy Engineering...May I ask where you come from? I was at your presentation yesterday afternoon and found it most stimulating..... | 6. My worry is that *I* could end up having a great, humanistic, dogme time and S could feel he isn't getting much. As I write this point I'm having an awful bout of: "It's all very well for us, but what do the Ss of this world want? ........ Do you think I qualify for a free copy of "Throwaway", just in case ?

||"These things which we with ourselves too much discuss." ||

ENOUGH!

Dennis

Wendy from the Young Learners SIG list asked me some leading questions:

Message: 3254 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Mo Apr 25, 2005 12:59 Subject: English from Zero

Wendy, You ask: >"So can you confirm that you are going into your very first >lesson/meeting without any preconceived ideas of what you're going to >do? No. I've been thinking what I'm going to do for weeks. But there is no lesson plan. No hidden agenda to teach the Present Simple. > Is this 'real' dogme' stuff? Wing it? Well, I know that's what people think dogme is, but dogme (to me) means something like: being prepared to work with what comes up. > Or are there things you want to find out? I want to find out all that I can about S and his past and his family and his ambitions etc. etc. but that is going to take time. And I want to find out, of course, what he is like as a learner, what helps and what doesn't. > Are you showing any materials? Not for our face-to-face session, but I want to show him how to use the tape material I'm experimentally suggesting he uses at home. < Will you be speaking German to him? As little as possible. I'll repeat that. As little as possible, only when it is totally unavoidable, and I think that will be with management matters. >Will you negotiate what English he wants? Yeees. I only hesitate because he tells me (and I believe him because I know his history from my wife, who used to work with his mother) that he really knows no English at all. He himself told me he understood a few words from TV. (If I remember, I'll get him to say all the words he knows, or some of them.) >How exciting! Ohhh and is he really and truly an English from zero or >a false starter? How can you be sure? It IS exciting. Strangely so. I'm relying on what S told me when I say he's an absolute beginner, but he is that rather than a false beginner. He's bi-lingual, but he has never learned a foreign language institutionally. Dennis

Re: [dogme] Culture Club

I agree, Rob, completely.

Until the research is done, though, intuitively, what do you think of the usefulness, frequency, of these sample "base sentences".

1. Hello 2. Good morning 3. I'm Robert Haines 4 Are you Dennis Newson? 5 Yes, I am. 6. How are you? 7. Fine, thanks. 8. How is Fiona? 9. She's very well, thank you. 10. Good afternoon, Mr Meddings. ..........

16. Come in, please. 17. Sit down. .......... 22. Do you understand? 23. Yes, I understand. 24. No, I don't understand. -------

Dennis

Robert Haines

Dennis writes: English 901 tapes contains what the editors describe as the 900 base sentences of the language, by which they mean the basic structures exemplified in sentences grouped together situationally. The tapes are mainly drills of the ancient, language laboratory three- phase type.

That sounds like a body of language just waiting for corpus data to validate its use/frequency :-)

Rob

Scott replies to Simon

Message: 8458 From: Scott Thornbury Received: Mo Apr 25, 2005 9:45 Subject: Re: curious bedfellows

Yes, Simon, well noted. I think Alistair Pennycook makes a similar allusion in oe of his books. For a start Crusoe makes no attempt to learn Friday's language even though it would have been of more local usefulness. The assumption is that the slave learns the language of the master (as in the - also much cited - Caliban-Prospero relation). But of course I was not endorsing this relationship, simply pointing out that Crusoe (like Dennis) probably approached the task by responding to Friday's immediate language needs, using features of the local context, and building from the known to the unknown. Very dogme, if not very BC! S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Gill" To: <dogme@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 9:23 AM Subject: [dogme] curious bedfellows I enjoyed Scott's quotes from 'Robinson Crusoe' and his suggestion that he could be considered as an early dogmetist. Robert Phillipson, in his 'Linguistic Imperialism', which I can't unfortunately quote from directly as I lent my copy to some bastar* who never returned it, suggests that he can be seen as the spiritual father of the British Council. Now there's food for thought... cheers Simon Gill, Olomouc, Czech Republic _______________________________________________

English from Zero

First lesson with S later today. Hmmm. Just listening to a bit of 'English 901', the tape course (60s) I intend to use with S for homework, that is work on his own when he's shaving, when he's walking to the University, when he's under his car i.e. to give him the chance to learn basic structures at his own pace, if that appeals to him. A woman with an awfully plummy voice asks brightly: "Is this Lesson Three? Where's Lesson Four? Now it's your turn, Jane. Please, read....That's very good!" Well, I suppose it is English (an English) of some sort....."This is lesson Fower, innit?"

Dennis

Dr. Evil

Message: 8434 From: Adrian Tennant Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 7:30 Subject: Re: Re: Teaching the way we learn

Hey Fiona, Not only do I agree but it was the same for me. I left school first time around with only four exam passes and a complete loating of education and teachers. Three things inspired me to become a teacher - 1) my mother said, "Don't become a teacher." 2) I decided I could do a better job than the rubbish I'd had, 3) I saw Robin Williams in Dead Poet's Society and thought - hey, I'd like to jump on tables!!!! One of the reasons for asking the question was that I think Dan is taking a far too simplistic view of teaching and learning. I do agree that we can learn from our own experiences (often more from the negative ones than the positive), but I also think that you have to analyse things and try to understand more about what's really going on - it's not simply a matter of transfer. One personal example is that I always thought I was an oral/aural learner. Then I started learning BSL (British sign language). Quite clearly no room for my prefered learning style. But, guess what? I was the best student there & I made amazing progress. So where the hell did/does that leave me? Thinking that I need to spend more time reflecting and observing ALL learners and not just naval gazing! Dr Evil --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fiona

Message: 8433 From: Fiona Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 6:05 Subject: Re: Teaching the way we learn

Hey Doc, you're being - um - tantalising..... Maybe rather than look at how you learnt, you could look at how you DIDN'T learn! I was a total loss at school - and if Sue is reading, I think this'll sound familiar, because I seem to remember her saying something similar. I was a loss because none of my teachers could 'reach' me. Oh for a Michelle Pfeiffer, Kevin Kline, Robin Williams......ahem. Or extremely few, apart from maybe one or two who took the relationship beyond Just Teach. Anyway, I now teach teenagers basing myself on how I was NEVER taught, but would like to have been. And it works. By gum (great phrase) it works! It involves a LOT of dogme, because that's what teens are about - themselves, and being listened to - but it also involved me looking back and spending a fair amount of time thinking about what kind of student I was NOT, how I DIDN'T learn. Like you say, there are many roads that lead to Rome, but the dead-ends have to be identified too. Fiona ------------

Dennis

Message: 8432 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 5:06 Subject: Re: Re: Dennis and Sergei

Yes, Daniel, you may certainly ask how I learnt German (O.K. but not brilliantly well) - with passing remarks on how I learned, or failed to learn, Latin, French, and Norwegian and Russian. (German last) - all under the title: ''Introspection on learning a foreign language." I note the importance of my emotional relationship to the language I was learning. Latin. None. Learnt little. All grammar, vocabulary and translation. French. Quite interested at the age of 11, much more interested at the age of 33 or so. Learnt to speak and understand adequately. No reading or writing to speak of.Something remianed of what I had been taught at school where we were taught in a traditional way - vocabulary to learn, translations, grammar. But I really began speaking French when I shared an office with a Frenchman who didn't want to speak English. Norwegian. None. Learnt little, though did manage to talk to my 4-year-old daughter, who was fluent. I learnt from her and a bit from watching English films with Norwegian sub-titles.I learnt nothing from my Norwegian teacher, who taught in English. Russian. Very interested. Learnt to speak, understand, read and write. Our teachers were native Russian speakers who had very little English and never used it. German. Resistant. (Did not want to be in Germany). Can talk freely though inaccurately and understand the majority of what I hear. Read little, and my writing is embarassing i.e. quite inaccurate, and will remain so. Did a 6-week course at the Goethe Institute, but didn't really learn my German there. We wrote down lists of vocabulary and grammar notes in lessons. Learnt, and go on learning German from talking to German relatives and others who don't speak English. Also by persevering at attendance of plays, readings talks in German, even if I only partly understand. I watch a little televsion, but the emphasis is on the little. This is a re-cycled account for some members. My apologies. Dennis

Rosemary

Message: 8431 From: Rosemary... Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 11:51 Subject: Re: Teaching the way we learn

In a message dated 4/23/2005 6:04:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rosemary writes: .......... but maybe, just maybe, we might actually have something in common with our students that would be useful, and by re-activating our learning sensibilities (i.e. learning something ourselves) we are more likely to be able to touch on that, no? I'm with you. My life mantra is, "Just do it!" Teachers should do their navel gazing between semesters and give their students, during the semster, as much of the result of their navel gazing as they can. Rosemary

Omar

Message: 8430 From: MCJ Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 3:35 Subject: Re: Teaching the way we learn

Daniel Tourt wrote: > > Obviously every student is different, and I didn't say that we should > teach exactly as we would like to be taught, but maybe, just maybe, we > might actually have something in common with our students that would be > useful, and by re-activating our learning sensibilities (i.e. learning > something ourselves) we are more likely to be able to touch on that, no? I do think about this alot, especially while drilling grammar rules and working through tedious workbook busy busy pages. I studied French in high school and it was absolute torture. I didn't do very well but was astonished to find, at mid-year when family friends visited from France, that I could actually speak French. I continued to make just passing grades in French but these were no impediment to communication, nor to my learning French well, once I finally ended up in France. Today I am expected to assess students' competence by drilling them on grammar factoids; but I do my best to undermine the system by massive generosity on writing and speaking assessments. Marking is absurd, and most students are aware of this - if not by the fact that in paying schools students can progress from "level 1" to "level 8" with no significant development of their productive language skills. We are constantly relating our old experiences to our new ones. I would be surprised by any teacher who had never thought about the learning process and what might be involved in it, nor attempted to relate such thoughts to personal experience. Omar

Dr. Evil

Message: 8429 From: Adrian Tennant Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 12:11 Subject: Re: Teaching the way we learn

Dan, How do YOU learn? Dr Evil

Dan

Message: 8428 From: Daniel Tourt Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 12:04 Subject: Re: Teaching the way we learn

Obviously every student is different, and I didn't say that we should teach exactly as we would like to be taught, but maybe, just maybe, we might actually have something in common with our students that would be useful, and by re-activating our learning sensibilities (i.e. learning something ourselves) we are more likely to be able to touch on that, no? Or is it much better not to take such a crazy risk, but rather theorise and sub-categorise until the 40 hours of the course are up?

Dr. Evil

Message: 8427 From: Adrian Tennant Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 11:48 Subject: Teaching the way we learn

Dan wrote: > the closest we have REALLY come to a student is being one. Not necessarily. Each student is different. And, if I only base my teaching on my learning styles and preferences ... surely it's better to look at lots of students and realize the diversity and variety inherent in learning? Dr Evil

Daniel

Message: 8426 From: Daniel Tourt Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 11:03 Subject: Re: Re: Dennis and S

Can I ask, Dennis, how you learnt German? Maybe there are some clues of what (and what not) is good for the student (and not a groovy, smell my methodology and enjoy it teacher). I think we tend to think that we have experience of what students want and need 'cos we have constant contact with them, whereas the closest we have REALLY come to a student is being one. I think all teachers should be made to take a course in something, learn something new, and see what it's like from that point of view again. Dan

Dennis

Subject: Re: Re: Dennis and S Oftimes have I wondered, O Scott of Thorneberry, how Thou doest file Thy quotations, so that Thou, in the twinkling of an eye, canst amuse and instruct our merrie band with a citation most apt. Apart from which, cobber, (Australian, I know. My New Zealanderish is non-existent)no translation isn't intended to be the names of things plus rudimentary structure a la Friday. You could all be forgiven for forgetting that for homework, as a complementary approach, S, my man Monday, will also be working his way, with guidance, through the classic 60's language laboratory/cassette course, English 900, where the 900 stands for the basic 900 structures of the English language. ( English 900 is the original American version, English 901, which S will be using, is the English version produced by the late Peter Strevens. No - English English hasn't got an extra structure, c.f. 900 original version, 901 first update, alteration.) Dennis

Scott

dogme@yahoogroups.com Message: 8424 From: scott_thornbury Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 9:27 Subject: Re: Dennis and S----- Dennis has bravely decided to eschew translation and adopt the "Robinson Crusoe" method. Just to remind you (from Daniel Defoe's "Robinson Crusoe"): "But to return to my New Companion; I was greatly delighted with him, and made it my Business to teach him every Thing, that was proper to make him useful, handy, and helpful; but especially to make him speak, and under stand me when I spake, and he was the aptest Schollar that ever was, and particularly was so merry, so constantly diligent, and so pleased, when he cou'd but understand me, or make me understand him, that it was very pleasant to me to talk to him; […] Friday began to talk pretty well, and understand the Names of almost every Thing I had occasion to call for, and of every Place I had to send him to, and talk'd a great deal to me". Unfortunately, with regard to Crusoe's method, Defoe does not go into details, but we can be pretty sure that translation was not part of it. We do have some samples of Friday's interlanguage though, and this shows evidence of a mainly lexical, non-syntactical, mode of processing, as might be expected: […] we began the following Discourse: You always fight the better said I, How came you to be taken Prisoner then, Friday? Friday, My Nation beat much, for all that. Master, How beat; if your Nation beat them, how come you to be taken? Friday, They more many than my Nation in the Place where me was; they take one, two, three, and me; my Nation over beat them in the yonder Place, where me no was; there my Nation take one, two, great Thousand. Master, But why did not your Side recover you from the Hands of your Enemies then? Friday, They run one, two, three, and me, and make go in the Canoe; my Nation have no Canoe that time. Master, Well, Friday, and What does your Nation do with the Men they take, do they carry them away, and eat them, as these did? Friday, Yes, my Nation eat Mans too, eat all up. The Robinson Crusoe method was an early manifestation of dogme, in its use of only those "affordances" that were available in the immediate learning environment, and its focus on the learner's own lived experience, even when this includes cannibalism. (Which i trust won't be the case with S). ;-) S.

Julian

dogme@yahoogroups.de Message: 8422 From: Julian Bamford Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 5:44 Subject: Dennis and S Dennis, Are you going to "teach S English"? Or are you going to mentor him in an English-speaking world? The difference is between a) carefully presenting him with a beginner's syllabus (today: telling the time), and practicing and drilling and reviewing each bite-sized, interlocking piece until he's got it, and b) offering him an apprenticeship in language in the context of life. It's the difference between a teacher leading--and two individuals living, with the coach watching for and pouncing on teachable moments. It's the difference between "What time is it?" and "David, would you PLEASE get off the table." The first is language that is dead on arrival, which is why we jazz it up with glossy Hollywood McEntertainment to make the whole rotton carcass palatable. The second is nutritious ingredients straight from the field, zesty, vibrant: Take great bites of it, or chew well and digest slowly as appropriate. You are the skilled ex-pro, and your charge is to develop the latent talent of the prodigy. It's the difference between introducing her to the moves a player needs one by one, or kicking the ball around, noticing how she moves, her strengths and weaknesses, and most of all her passions and talents, which are the fertile patches where growth is easy. You use your skill to get her into the game. Her game, not a pale imitation of yours. S is an adult. Why consign him to diapers by denying your common language? Embrace German because that's your means to communicate, adult-to-adult--and use it as the jumping off point for English, which will sprout who knows where, and be learned by him who knows when. Watch and see what he is learning, and build on it day by day. His English will develop organically, because that's the crop you've both decided to grow. (Applications from further metaphors, especially mixed, now being considered.)

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroups.com Message: 8423 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 8:15 Subject: Re: Dennis and S Julian,

I loved your metaphors up to " Why consign him to diapers by denying your common language? Embrace German because that's your means to communicate, adult-to-adult--and use it as the jumping off point for English."

We shall be using German as you suggest - we've already started to do so phoning, meeting and setting up the first lessons and talking briefly about how we are going to work. We'll be talking German, too, no doubt, after the lesson - at least for a while. But for the contact one hour, twice or thrice a week, it's shoes off, no smoking, keep to the left, English only (....as far as possible). Why am I being so contrary? From personal experience I retch at the thought of a formal contact hour (as opposed to a social occasion) in two languages with the translation OK filter on. If a learner is shown that the L1 is accepted, it's that bit harder to bother to try to use the L2. Experience next week could prove me wrong - as I wrote in the last message, this discussion omits S, we can only speculate about how he'll be as a learner, but, I agree strongly with Fiona, there are so many lexical items, phrases, chunks that are either near cognates, clear from context or easily demonstrable in context - as long as the learner, from the beginning, is encouraged to stay in the L2 and not take the easy, but sometimes misleading way out i.e. L1 or translation - (still with me syntactically?) e.g. Gut/good, nein/no Buch/Book, Rot/red, repeat, stopp/stop OK?/OK? usw/etc Of course I haven't got a syllabus. But, from what I've learned of S's background, great-grandparents emigrated to Russia in the 18th. century //introduce lexical items for relatives, at least as far as great-grandfather// family exiled to Kazachstan and Siberia //introduce lexical items, with a map, of a few key countries in S's life.. I've a hint of some of the things Sergei might want to/be willing to tell me about himself. And there is counting, he'll need numbers; and the days of the week and the months of the year......... My golden principle is going to be - to try to enable Sergei to say (and understand) what he wants to say (and understand), but to avoid wherever possible, resorting to translation - which brings about understanding in a different way, and is probably less memorable. And, believe it or not, I'll do anything within reason that S says he wants! We've already spoken about grammar, in case he was expecting lots of grammar rules. But he said no, no. He prefers to leave it up to me to decide how to work. Dennis (All this discussion of what I'm going to do before I do it. I'm probably going to get 'flu tomorrow and lose my voice or Sergei is going to run away over the weekend with his girlfriend to Gretna Green).

M 8422 Julian

dogme@yahoogroups.de Message: 8422 From: Julian Bamford Received: Sa Apr 23, 2005 5:44 Subject: Dennis and S Dennis, Are you going to "teach S English"? Or are you going to mentor him in an English-speaking world? The difference is between a) carefully presenting him with a beginner's syllabus (today: telling the time), and practicing and drilling and reviewing each bite-sized, interlocking piece until he's got it, and b) offering him an apprenticeship in language in the context of life. It's the difference between a teacher leading--and two individuals living, with the coach watching for and pouncing on teachable moments. It's the difference between "What time is it?" and "David, would you PLEASE get off the table." The first is language that is dead on arrival, which is why we jazz it up with glossy Hollywood McEntertainment to make the whole rotton carcass palatable. The second is nutritious ingredients straight from the field, zesty, vibrant: Take great bites of it, or chew well and digest slowly as appropriate. You are the skilled ex-pro, and your charge is to develop the latent talent of the prodigy. It's the difference between introducing her to the moves a player needs one by one, or kicking the ball around, noticing how she moves, her strengths and weaknesses, and most of all her passions and talents, which are the fertile patches where growth is easy. You use your skill to get her into the game. Her game, not a pale imitation of yours. S is an adult. Why consign him to diapers by denying your common language? Embrace German because that's your means to communicate, adult-to-adult--and use it as the jumping off point for English, which will sprout who knows where, and be learned by him who knows when. Watch and see what he is learning, and build on it day by day. His English will develop organically, because that's the crop you've both decided to grow. (Applications from further metaphors, especially mixed, now being considered.) Julian

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroups.de Message: 8421 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 10:13 Subject: Re: S Rob, The taperecorder is already on the table, even though it is only Friday and we don't start until Monday. But my intuitive feeling ( c.f. TTEdSIG list) is that we shan't use it too much just yet. I've an idea it might interest the teacher more than the pupil. But we'll see. As for the switching from German to English, that's just what I don't want. What's wrong with it? It flicks switches which imply 'Translation is OK.' The German we use will be emergency use. When Sergei says: "Was?????", I can't help feeling that that is precisely where the easy route out - a German translation - should not be taken.It is a question of atmosphere.I don't like mixing languages. The aura of the language being learned is spoilt and the dramatic tension, the reaching after meaning, is short-circuited. But I've fallen into teacher talk. Though I have my convictions, I hope I'll still be able to follow S's learning. Dennis

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroup.com Message: 8419 From: Fiona Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 7:23 Subject: Re: S To be honest, Dennis, I would wait and see what he's like as a student. You may not need to speak any German at all, if he's good at the context stuff. Like kids. I speak to most of the kids on our street in English, they reply to me in Spanish. My eight-year-old son can't work out how his buddies always understand me, but "hello" "hola" "how are you?" (big smile) "bien" "Oh, be careful, there's a car coming" (large Peugeot estate heading towards us) etc etc....... In our old flat, I used to ask our neighbour about cartoons and stuff. They don't get squiffy about language until they're around 7, BUT some adults can function like this too, especially if they realise that this is the way you work. And anyway, how many classes do you start with "May I have a pound of garlic sausage please?" (ie, it's usually obvious stuff, innit?). You could use the other two languages as a sort of tool or resource, for example, looking at a magazine or something, ask (in English) "how do you say that in Russian?" pointing to something. "Did you understand?" is clear from context - how many people know what capisci is without studying Italian? Maybe I'm just mean to my students, I'm a battleaxe where English is concerned, only using Spanish for being cross in.........maybe it is slower initially, but in the long run, it's much faster. Just like you, one of my classes of 3-4 year olds, a few years ago, learnt to dot their Spanish with words in English, but their one complete sentence - which they could all shriek with delight in the second week of the daily course - was "David! Would you PLEASE get off the table!" What was the question, again? Fiona :-)

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroup.com Message: 8419 From: Fiona Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 7:23 Subject: Re: S To be honest, Dennis, I would wait and see what he's like as a student. You may not need to speak any German at all, if he's good at the context stuff. Like kids. I speak to most of the kids on our street in English, they reply to me in Spanish. My eight-year-old son can't work out how his buddies always understand me, but "hello" "hola" "how are you?" (big smile) "bien" "Oh, be careful, there's a car coming" (large Peugeot estate heading towards us) etc etc....... In our old flat, I used to ask our neighbour about cartoons and stuff. They don't get squiffy about language until they're around 7, BUT some adults can function like this too, especially if they realise that this is the way you work. And anyway, how many classes do you start with "May I have a pound of garlic sausage please?" (ie, it's usually obvious stuff, innit?). You could use the other two languages as a sort of tool or resource, for example, looking at a magazine or something, ask (in English) "how do you say that in Russian?" pointing to something. "Did you understand?" is clear from context - how many people know what capisci is without studying Italian? Maybe I'm just mean to my students, I'm a battleaxe where English is concerned, only using Spanish for being cross in.........maybe it is slower initially, but in the long run, it's much faster. Just like you, one of my classes of 3-4 year olds, a few years ago, learnt to dot their Spanish with words in English, but their one complete sentence - which they could all shriek with delight in the second week of the daily course - was "David! Would you PLEASE get off the table!" What was the question, again? Fiona :-)

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroups.de Message: 8418 From: Robert M. Haines Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 6:56 Subject: S Dennis, I have to admit I think I'd be rather quick to exploit the common language (German) between you and S in order to expedite communication. What's so bad about: S : Good morning. Wie geht's? Dennis: How's it going? Well, it's going well. And how are you this morning? S (puzzled look): How... how are you? Dennis: Wie geht's Dir? How are you this morning? This, Dennis, seems like a great opportunity for CLL. I would bring in a tape recorder on the first day, explaining that it's only there as an aid and let S have control of when he's ready to turn it on and off. When he is ready, I'd save some time at the end of a lesson to listen together and write up some useful chunks and frames. Looking forward to more details soon. Best, Rob

English from Zero

dogme@yahoogroups.com Message: 8416 From: lamarea lamarea Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 3:44 Subject: Re: Re: English from zero hello to all, i´ve been lurking about for a while since i am super busy, but am finally writing,,, dogme is not for everyone, and it takes a certain amount of experience and know-how as well as charisma to successfully pull off a lesson using dogme principles,,, one thing is certain though,,,what is successfully learnt in dogme teaching is usually retained on a more permanent basis, seems to me,,, i also like to refer to dogme as tangent teaching,,,as robert haines referred to in a lesson which originated with the casual discussion of the word ´barrio´, then, jumping to yet, another, and another idea,,,topics suggested by the students themselves have so much more of a chance of providing long term learning than text book learning, as much as publishers would like to believe the contrary,,, which brings me to my reply to dennis about s´s class,,, i have my students create their own book in a notebook ,,,all ideas for class material come from them, and i am their dictionary, as is internet, etc, etc,,, listening materials? ... all student created,,,they tape their own tapes, and some even listen to them in their car radio on their way to work in the morning,,,no bad accidents as a result yet!,,,seriously, the more input from them, the more creative processing being done, the better,,, grammar? same thing,,, i have them invent their own reasons why this or that is done this or that way in english as opposed to their own language,,, i cease to be their teacher and i am their friend, their equal, we teach each other,,, just my two cents melinda soltysiak

English From Zero

dogme@yahoogroups.com

Message: 8413 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 11:48 Subject: Re: Re: English from zero Hi, Dan, Well, at one period in my career, when I taught in a middle school in Doha, Qatar, that was exactly the situation: my learners hadn't a single word of English, not even the scatalogical ones, and I had only one word of Arabic - safajal, a quince. I had to ask friends what this was in Arabic because none of the dictionaries around told me and because I couldn't draw one, because I'd never seen one. It turned out the children hadn't seen one either, so the Arabic word wasn't much help. You make me remember - it wasn't just that, but for the first year, I think it was, the boys (it was a boys' school) couldn't write, either. I really did demonstrate, act out, draw everything. I had to. And there were lots of oral drills and chorus work - Row A: 'What's the time?" Row B: " 12 o'clock." Row c "Oh no it isn't!" That sort of thing. But it worked. Proof? As I walked through the souk (aka market) I often used to hear the words, frequently from an unseen boy: "Will you stop talking and SIT DOWN!" [With apologies to all those who have been subjected to an earlier version of this anecdote.]

dogme@yahoogroups.com Message: 8412 From: Daniel Tourt Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 11:19 Subject: Re: Re: English from zero I agree that using (or understanding) L1, if you can, to get the message across is a good idea (after all, you are a resource that is found naturally in the classroom and you said you were phasing it out quite quickly), but lets assume your level of German was the same as S's English. Where then? Having heard the schpiel the secretaries at most schools I've taught at give the "clients" (their word) - 'We have mother tongue teachers who only use English in the classroom, since full emersion is the quickest way to learn - blah blah blah', I was wondering what life would be like if that really were true, without resorting to flashcardy, point and repeat methodologies and staying true to the Dogme spirit. Dan

dogme@yahoogroups.com Message: 8410 From: djn@dennisnewson.de Received: Fr Apr 22, 2005 7:13 Subject: English from zero "I might be teaching" has turned into "I will be teaching". S... will be learning (we hope) English from scratch with me, 1to1, on Monday. He says (in German) that he's very curious and can't imagine how you can learn a foreign language from zero. This is a quaint remark since he is bilingual, Russian & German, but, of course, he wasn't, at least at the start, formally taught either of the languages he speaks. Thinking ahead (of course it isn't preparation.....) I can see that there are lots of phrases, chunks that we'll need as soon as possible - Can you repeat that, please? What's the English for....? Do you know...? Did you understand? I'm going to be very sparing with my use of German, and phase it out pretty damned fast. If S. speaks German, I'll answer in English just throwing in the necessary words of German if he looks desparate. I'm going to be his only source of English. I'll see how we go. Comments from people on this list or with access to Blogger.com will be welcome at all times. Dennis